Herczeg ZoltánVery, very, very warmly welcome to all of you. I think the recording has already started. We met here in the Budapest.fm studio with a very, very dear friend of mine, at the invitation of another very, very dear friend of mine, who is called Ray Brown, by the way. He's there behind the computer, he's the professional genius here, and also our host. My dear brother is Balázs Karafiáth, with whom our relationship is now about 25 years old, or maybe 30? I have to say it's 30 years. From '91. From the freshman camp, Budapest University of Economic Sciences. That's where we had the luck to meet first. I myself am Zoltán Herczeg, designer, civic political activist, and friend. And brother.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd I bring the design too.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd you bring the expectation too, yes, because Balázs is not just my friend and brother, but also my regular customer. And well, there are many common points in our lives.
Karafiáth BalázsThe most important common point is love. And friendship.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, an interesting interview follows, because I wasn't quite prepared for what's about to happen, since I didn't know I'd be the interviewer, and having never been an interviewer before, but I don't usually get scared of a task, so we'll improvise, we'll wing it. All I know about being an interviewer is that if you ask smart questions, if you ask good questions, then you can get good answers to them. Then everything's okay.
Karafiáth BalázsWell then I think so, yes.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd since I'm a curious guy, although I know a lot about you, because we've basically lived through these 30 years with a lot of overlap, I know a lot about you, but let's look at that a bit less. So let's dive in, econ university, the 'aula department.' I'll start with a personal experience, I couldn't figure out where to put the brakes at the beginning when I first saw you, and I think that was the case with the other six hundred classmates of ours too. There were a lot of special characters there, because this university gathered, in that year, we're talking about 1991, in the first, second year after the regime change, an incredibly wide and very diverse community, a group of people, from Nyíregyháza to Szombathely. And into this crew I got in by luck, so to speak, but the Budapest guys were somehow different. The Budapest boys and girls seemed somehow UFO-like, alien-like, to someone from the countryside, and within that even more so...
Karafiáth BalázsBack then?
Herczeg ZoltánNot yet back then.
Karafiáth BalázsI don't think so either yet. No, back then the UFO thing was just starting... I was just a beginner UFO back then, because I got wilder at university, since I came from a very strict high school, with short hair, uniform, etc. I rebelled there too, but I didn't have long hair yet. In '91 it just started growing.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd well, for me this otherness, this specialness, actually manifested in outward appearance, but not for you. I somehow saw that this guy was special. Special from his head, special from his brain. Did you feel this specialness in that community back then? Or was this intellectual crew a natural environment for you?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, that was my natural environment, I didn't feel the specialness. What I felt was that I stood out, if that's what specialness is. So we were reinforcing the 'aula department,' the back rows, so we weren't up front, but I did notice that I wasn't very stupid compared to the others. So it became clear to me early on that I could keep up the pace. Meanwhile it was really good to be in the company of people much smarter than me, so I met super interesting, exciting friends there right from the start too, but it turned out that this wasn't...
Herczeg ZoltánWell, this was going to work out. You stood out, yes.
Honestly, for me that intellectual environment, coming from where I came from, was a much bigger challenge than it apparently was for you, and I had to grind, but I also realized that I wasn't really interested in the science they were selling at the econ university. So I quickly realized, or rather I didn't realize it, I just did it, that I wasn't going to go to work at eight in the morning in a suit, and I wasn't going to cut my hair, because my hair grew during those five years. So the 'aula department' foreshadowed that I, and then the question will be how you feel about this, I wouldn't want to go in at eight in the morning, in a suit until five in the afternoon, with a briefcase, doing that kind of thing all day, which might pay well, but I don't see the end of it, and I don't see any value or content in what I'm doing, because I simply didn't even understand what an economist does.
I think, I feel, that you didn't really want this career path either.
Karafiáth BalázsNo, no, it also became clear to me that I wouldn't be a finance major. What was interesting was that for me, the Sziget hit. So I basically stayed interested through the whole first year, I did a proper year, I gave the econ university a real, proper first year, and basically in the middle of the second year, Sziget hit, so Karcsi Gerendai and Péter Müller actually showed up at my apartment, and we started organizing the Sziget Festival. Is this '92 we're talking about?
Herczeg ZoltánWell, that would already be March '93.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, March '93. Basically from then on, econ university took a backseat for me, so much so that I even failed an exam in '94, and had to retake it in math statistics, which then went brilliantly, but it turned out again that if I study, it works. Gergő Brückner prepared me for it, so with Gergő's help I managed.
Herczeg ZoltánWho also graduated there.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, to pass that exam, but then in the following years, I basically attended econ university properly for about one year.
Herczeg ZoltánBut if I guess correctly, yes, yes, we actually met less often there after that.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, so after that duty squeezed me out.
Herczeg ZoltánI know we met many times in the 'aula,' because I myself was also reinforcing the 'aula' major. In that, I don't think I know anyone who was a bigger offender than me. I think there...
Karafiáth BalázsYes, so you were actually the leader of the student government in the 'aula department.'
Herczeg ZoltánDo you know what the underclassmen called me?
Karafiáth BalázsThey called you 'the one who is.' They'd come into the aula, and that guy is just there. He's always just there. First table on the left.
Herczeg ZoltánFirst table on the left, exactly. Close to the buffet, and there were times when we actually went into class, but...
Karafiáth BalázsYes, there were times.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, I failed once, exactly once, I got exactly one failing grade in the whole of econ university, on my very last exam, in fifth year, in industrial marketing, but only because I brought in so many cheat sheets that my paper, my answer sheet, bulged out, and the teacher came, lifted the answer sheet, swept up the stuff, the cheat sheet, and left, leaving me there. So I kept writing afterward from memory whatever I knew, I remember again the improvisation came, which I'm doing now, and I got a huge failing grade for it, but since we knew that in industrial marketing the retake would have exactly the same set of questions as the regular exam, I memorized those 5-6 questions and wrote a big top grade at the end. So I got through that relatively easily, but I didn't use any of it at all.
But maybe you did it with difficulty, or somehow, or irregularly, but you did make it all the way to the end.
Karafiáth BalázsYeah, so I made it to the end, and after that...
Herczeg ZoltánThen it wasn't five years, apparently.
Karafiáth BalázsYes it was.
Herczeg ZoltánIt was five years?
Karafiáth BalázsIn five years, yes. It was very dicey, but in the end I somehow scraped through, yes.
Herczeg ZoltánBut compared to that, then came the Jél.
Karafiáth BalázsWell, the Jél was much further down the line.
Herczeg ZoltánMuch further.
Karafiáth BalázsOf course.
Herczeg ZoltánWell that's ten years later. Okay, then let's not skip those ten years, so econ university and Sziget.
Karafiáth BalázsSziget.
Herczeg ZoltánLet's talk about Sziget.
Karafiáth BalázsLet's talk about Sziget. Yes.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, a bit. So how did Sziget come about in the first place, how did Péter Müller come into it, how did Gerendai come into it?
Karafiáth BalázsPéter Müller and Gerendai...
Herczeg ZoltánAnd why did it end? Because if you were still at Sziget now, we might be talking about something else.
Karafiáth BalázsYes. I'd certainly be alive.
Herczeg ZoltánI have the feeling that I'm not sure I'd be alive.
Karafiáth BalázsWell then tell me about this. So, Sziget. Karcsi Gerendai was at the time the manager, the concert organizer, of Péter Müller's band Sziámi.
And that's how they found, I think they found my father, he still had an advertising agency then, asking if he had an idea, could he help, did he have money, contacts, something. And he directed them to me, to talk to me, if I was interested, and that there's an apartment I was living in then, which had previously been the company's office.
And in '93 it still mattered that there were several phone lines set up there, you had to use those for internet, fax, printer, computer. So it was practically an apartment that could function as a complete office, very close by, at Falk Miksa, sorry, Elkel Street 20, funnily enough in what used to be János Arany's old apartment. So from here János Arany used to go out to Margaret Island to write his autumn poems. Funnily enough.
And of course this possibility got me really excited, that we'd start doing this together, and a completely crazy thing began. Just think, we put together the '93 Sziget by starting in April.
Herczeg ZoltánThe June festival?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, the August festival.
Herczeg ZoltánThe August festival, yes.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, August, right. So the whole thing started with us getting the island from Demszky for one forint for that week. And then practically it was like stone soup, you know. We already had the venue, we just needed a thing or two more.
And I think there was an enormous manifesting power in this team. Péter was obviously the wizard of it, directing the whole thing, and we arrived into a huge vacuum. Just imagine, when Péter dreamed up that there needed to be a week of being together, there were no festivals.
Herczeg ZoltánYes.
Karafiáth BalázsSo basically EFOTT was the only thing all summer.
Herczeg ZoltánYes.
Karafiáth BalázsNow there's two, three, four every weekend. There wasn't. The obligatory communist-style parties from existing socialism were over, and the new communities hadn't developed yet. This is what developed. Organically. And it was needed. It was like we were standing on some gravitational path, like this simply had to happen, and, naturally, we had absolutely no idea what we were doing.
At that time Karcsi was coming from a very bad experience, where he'd befriended some Americans who promised they'd throw a big "500 years since we discovered America" party on Margaret Island in '92, and then on July 3rd and 4th they got on a plane with all the money. So Karcsi got up from that experience.
Herczeg ZoltánWas this in the same year?
Karafiáth BalázsIt was before, yes, in '92. And it was otherwise a very good concert, but Péter's band was already a solid underground act, they weren't playing pop music even then, you know. It wasn't that they gathered around a star to make a Sziget, you know. It was underground.
Herczeg ZoltánUnderground, yes.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, so it's very important that the roots of this are not at all in the consumer world.
Herczeg ZoltánWhich is where it ended up.
Karafiáth BalázsIt got there much sooner than that, I remember very well the year when the logos appeared on the island.
Herczeg ZoltánLet's jump ahead a bit then, let's not get too deep into this Sziget topic, since I understand now how the original meeting happened, the original beginning, and you said you're not sure you'd still be alive, so let's wrap up this Sziget topic by getting into what you mean by that, that you're not sure you'd still be alive.
Karafiáth BalázsWell, that we plunged into a lifestyle which, in my case...
Herczeg ZoltánCan we call it rock and roll?
Karafiáth BalázsA rock and roll lifestyle that had restarted. Rock and roll isn't a dance, right? It's not a dance, it's a lifestyle with a great many parts to it, and I honestly wouldn't bet that I'd still be alive if I'd kept working in that field. That's been my thinking lately, that it's good to be alive.
Good to be alive. I did two years with Sziget, and a lot of things came to light. It turned out that what looks from the outside like a very exciting creative project is, from the inside, a hospitality-industry haggle, where nothing has a fixed price, everyone wants to charge more and everyone wants to pay less, and the whole thing is very much a merchant's business.
Herczeg ZoltánThis is what we don't see from outside.
Karafiáth BalázsYes. Nothing has a price, everything costs whatever you can get for it. A performer, who decides what it costs for someone to strum a guitar there? Ten forints, a hundred forints, a thousand forints, a million forints, you know, and then the stage, the lights.
Herczeg ZoltánThe math got tougher.
Karafiáth BalázsThe math did get tougher, right? The essence of the math was, there'd be a ticket price, ten thousand people would come, or a hundred thousand, and there'd be costs, the band, how much the strumming guy costs, the stage, the lights, and the two things had to balance, or at least the plus had to be a bit bigger than the minus.
Herczeg ZoltánSo that's where the story started.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd of course it started with enormous failures, incredible ones, so you were basically part of the failing side of things.
Karafiáth BalázsAbsolutely. At the start, well, the first three years were solidly in the red.
Herczeg ZoltánThen, if I'm guessing right, you didn't make much money out of it financially either. Not that it's any of our business, I'm just asking because of the business side.
Karafiáth BalázsNo, no. This was a huge experience for me. And what I saw, first of all, was that this wasn't really me, they had been living this rock and roll profession for decades already, and for me as a university economics student it was a glimpse into this world, and I concluded it was very cool, and it did a lot of good for my ego, I suddenly had tons of friends, all through the year I suddenly had friends, just because my personality had apparently become so attractive overnight.
Herczeg ZoltánWe weren't friends at that time, Lezsó and I, were we?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, we just knew each other, but that special quality, that otherness, that distance I'm telling you about from the summer camp days, or was telling you about earlier, that actually remained basically until the end of five years, because I couldn't figure out what to do with this special, interesting guy. I didn't know if I was supposed to like him or not, and there was a period, oh, my memory is fresh now, when we thought you were a big jerk, and maybe that was the era when he thought you were a big jerk.
Herczeg ZoltánI'm sure I thought of myself as a big jerk too.
Karafiáth BalázsThen maybe that's the period when we weren't friends.
Herczeg ZoltánMaybe, yes.
Karafiáth BalázsVery good, and since we're on the subject of ego and friends, now you've ended up on the other side of the ego, or how should I put it, you've been fighting with the ego ever since, or we've been fighting with it ever since, just consciously now, and if rock and roll is one pole, then what you're doing now is the other pole.
Herczeg ZoltánExactly the other pole. Transcending the ego.
Karafiáth BalázsTranscending the ego. But this operates in a systematic way, so since then, what I've learned, and Jung talks a lot about this, you can read a lot about it from others too, that it's actually a very good activity, that in the first half of our life we build the ego, and in the second half of our life we dismantle the ego. So it's a...
Herczeg ZoltánWell, that's the evolution I'm interested in, I think we're now arriving at the topic of our conversation, how the rock and roll guy becomes the arrogant, unapproachable, that's the word I was looking for...
I felt a kind of privileged aura around you, but I didn't feel back then that we had any overlap at all, you know? There's this Pest guy, who back in ninety-something even did Sziget with his own office, though I don't think I even knew that back then, I only knew there was this guy with a strange aura I couldn't connect with, and very interestingly, we actually became friends after university.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right. In these twenty-five years that have passed.
Herczeg ZoltánSo now we're going to dissect that evolution until the show runs out, how the rock and roll guy becomes someone transcending the ego, working in coaching, in something completely different, showing basically no connection to economics anymore. That's what interests me. If possible, stage by stage, because I'd like to present a whole career arc: after Sziget came Carnation, if I remember correctly, after Carnation came JÉL, America, San Francisco, and then you arrived at coaching. So let's look briefly, stage by stage, at the period after Sziget.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, so after Sziget came a year in America, so it was actually Sziget that catapulted me out of there.
Without that I probably would have stayed at the Sziget, but what happened was that I got lost, I turned the wrong way on the second floor at the Economics University, or maybe the first floor, so I ended up in a part of the corridor where I'd never been before. I rarely went up from the ground floor.
Herczeg ZoltánYes, yes. Very rarely.
Karafiáth BalázsExactly. And I was looking, what's this, and it was written on the wall, you know, things like come to Holland, go to America. I'd never seen this board before.
Herczeg ZoltánYou know, that's how the Dobos Sándi crowd ended up in Holland too. The whole brigade went out to Holland, I only went out for a one week visit, which I really liked by the way.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd then I saw there was an American scholarship, so I wrote my name down, I figured nothing bad could come of it. You just had to write your name on a piece of paper, that was doable.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's it? On the notice board? You wrote your name on the list and that was it?
Karafiáth BalázsYes.
Herczeg ZoltánClever. Clever move.
Karafiáth BalázsI had to submit a few papers and such, and in the end it turned out I came fourth, they were taking three people, so I said, well, this isn't going to work out, fine. And then a week later they called to say the first person on the list had accepted another opportunity. So I became the third.
Herczeg ZoltánOh, wow.
Karafiáth BalázsSo I said, okay, let's go. So that's basically what happened. America was an old love and an old connection for me, I'd already been out there the summer before university, in a kind of work camp, doing gardening in a summer camp with a group called Camp America. So this was a very old fixation of mine from before, and we're talking about '95, I spent a semester out in America in '95, and when I came back, and in America it became...
Herczeg ZoltánDid you also study at some university there, in economics?
Karafiáth BalázsIt was a guest semester, yes, and then I had to pass exams, and after that we did a two month trip, a coast to coast and back trip, so along the east coast to the west coast, and then back to the east coast, by car.
Herczeg ZoltánIn a twenty year old Ford station wagon.
Karafiáth BalázsVery good.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's what I'm planning for this year too.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, yes. That would be great.
Herczeg ZoltánWe've already talked about this with him too.
Karafiáth BalázsSo that's what happened. That was in '95, and this is where I got acquainted with the internet, still the pre-web internet. Because already at the Sziget there was the first one, there was a digital island in '94, where the server was right there on the Sziget itself. Imagine that you literally had to dial into it. So if you wanted to check it, this was called BBS, bulletin board system, that server on the Sziget, Vona brought it in. And there could be two users, parallel users, since there were two modems in the computer.
Herczeg ZoltánSerious stuff.
Karafiáth BalázsVery serious. So this was a Dutch connection through Padi Marianna, she met Tuk, and Tuk's crew, with the help of Access for All, we set this up in '94. So even then it was already a fully international thing. So by then the whole internet had already gotten to me, I started emailing in '95 in America with friends from back then, and that's how the whole fixation started, that there should be some kind of internet company, and that's how Karnevál came about, we founded Karnevál in the summer of '97.
And that turned into a five year story. I was in this until about 2002, and after that I had a similar feeling, that we were past the first big push, when we really had to push hard, and I no longer had much enthusiasm for the optimization that comes after innovation. That is, when you have to fine tune things so the gears run smoothly, and maintain an operation, so I looked for a managing director, found one, he was unsuitable, I looked for another one, he started stealing the company at night with his thing.
Herczeg ZoltánA truly Hungarian story.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, and the third one worked out. And so the one we'd recently hired, Tóth Krisztián, he became the new managing director, and he took it forward, I stayed on as chairman for a while. And then in 2012 we sold the company. It went well, it grew, that company developed, and it produces results that are clearly visible to the naked eye even in Hungary. It was a complete, absolute success story, and it was bought by a large international advertising agency network called WPP.
Herczeg ZoltánThey bought it, from that point on. And it's still doing well now.
Karafiáth BalázsUntil recently, so it still exists today, the team was led until last year by someone I myself had hired.
Herczeg ZoltánSeriously?
Karafiáth BalázsSeriously.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's insane.
Karafiáth BalázsDani and the Szabó Erik crowd.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd the company dealt with online marketing there?
Karafiáth BalázsYes, but they moved up to something more serious, so instead of advertising campaigns it became a full, I don't even know what they called themselves most recently, but as part of a company group called Possible, which was within WPP, they did things like, say, front-end and back-end, the entire computer infrastructure behind it...
Herczeg ZoltánThey built the structure too, the programming, everything.
Karafiáth BalázsSo what comes to mind now, for instance Adidas came up with the idea that you design your own shoe, and they manufacture it there, and deliver it within 48 hours, or 20, I don't know, something like that in Western Europe. And practically, except for the actual shoe manufacturing, the guys did all of this, the whole thing. It became a really, really great team, yes.
Herczeg ZoltánSo, what year are we at when you parted ways with Karnevál?
Karafiáth BalázsYou're asking two, you're asking two, from Karnevál. Yes, and then the PhD program.
Herczeg ZoltánPhD, yes.
Karafiáth BalázsSo I sat back down at the school desk, because I felt that I'd really started to become interested in...
Herczeg ZoltánYou had to make up for it.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd memes started to interest me, what makes ideas spread, what this whole thing is.
Herczeg ZoltánSo the memes now, that's twenty... Was it already 2002 when you started researching memes?
Karafiáth BalázsI started researching memes in 2002, yes.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, I think we've roughly arrived at the point when we actually started becoming friends, but I don't know exactly how that came about, because during our time at the Economics University there really wasn't a connection between us, and somehow it happened. Do you remember?
Karafiáth BalázsThrough a group, so I think through the Dobos Sándi crowd, yes, I think so.
Herczeg ZoltánRight, yes, because when you started telling me about memes, I was really amazed, it was a completely new science, and you modeled it mathematically with, well. So you scientifically examined this whole story, which today, I always object when my own civilian political team calls something a meme that we ourselves edited, a picture we ourselves edited, and I say, guys, this isn't a meme. I know what a meme is, because my brother explained to me what a meme is. This isn't a meme, this is a picture. It's a picture for now, with a slogan on it and a logo, that's it. If we're very lucky, and we do it well, and the audience picks it up, then it can become a meme, but this is nowhere near a meme yet. And I always object, please, enlighten us...
But as the resident meme expert.
In that team I was the meme expert, but please tell us, please reveal to us exactly what we call a meme, and how this can be researched, and what the point of researching it is.
Karafiáth BalázsWell, we call contagious contents of consciousness memes, so things like that.
Herczeg ZoltánWhat's it short for, by the way?
Karafiáth BalázsMeme is a coined word. No, it was made based on the word gene by a researcher named Richard Dawkins back in '76. So this is an old story, and then the internet picked it up in '96. Because before the internet these memes spread in quite a different way.
Herczeg ZoltánThey spread by word of mouth?
Karafiáth BalázsAnd by imitation. So the science of memes, memetics, is essentially the science of cultural development that spreads through imitation, cultural evolution. And it says that when brains became large enough, exactly how, that's actually a very exciting question, but sometime 100,000, 200,000 years ago, some say 80,000, then...
...and a proto-language formed, and then a language, and from that point on the whole of human evolution changed, since alongside genetic evolution, memetic evolution, cultural evolution, kicked in. And from what were initially shouts, like, uh, do that, gesturing, a language developed out of that, and with language a way of operating developed, where I could say what I think about the guy standing over there, and a situation developed where we started gossiping, and gossip created communities, because gossip is the human version of grooming.
Human-like apes can stay together in groups of seven or eight because they groom each other, and that creates a kind of social network. The human social network happens through gossip, and because of that we became able to create groups, tribes of about 150 people, where we can identify each other. About that many people we can hold in our heads, names, faces, matching faces to names.
We could say that a community of 150 people can still be called a healthy human community.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's right, so that's what we feel good in. It's like a small village.
Karafiáth BalázsOr a small village, a commune, a small community. And before the appearance of the ego, this was very good for everyone. So until about 150 years ago, before this construct called the ego stepped in...
Herczeg ZoltánThe ego has only existed for 150 years? Is that what you're saying?
Karafiáth BalázsYes. It's not me saying it, it's many people who think about this who say it. It's not for nothing that Freud, around the turn of the last century, started seriously working and thinking about this, because before that it didn't exist.
Herczeg ZoltánI suppose a medieval king had an ego too, or a Vittorio... Alexander the Great, or Julius Caesar. They just didn't call it that, or didn't know what it was.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd poets, or people who were somehow tied into their genius, where something could appear through them. And that's where the great kings and the not-so-great kings come from, because the ones who couldn't step into it, we don't even remember them, you see. So it's a very interesting thing that a person thought about themselves completely differently, say, five hundred years ago than now, or a thousand years ago, or ten thousand years ago.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, let's start arriving at the present, that is, what I'm dealing with these days. This topic is now becoming very, very exciting. Let's somehow connect this memetics research to what I'm working on today.
Karafiáth BalázsThis is very exciting. That's when it came, we started a company with László Mérő in 2003, so 18 years ago we began doing this meme research.
Herczeg Zoltán18? That's really serious, yes.
Karafiáth BalázsLaci was an optional mentor at the university at the time, and I asked him to be my mentor in this.
Herczeg ZoltánAh, so that's where you know each other from?
Karafiáth BalázsThat's where the acquaintance comes from, he taught in the Pécs program.
Herczeg ZoltánThe Corvinus, the economics university?
Karafiáth BalázsNo. It ended at the economics university, funnily enough it was a Pécs program that we did at the technical university, and in the end we graduated from the economics university. It's as if I'm some kind of original economics-university person, because my basic degree, my MBA, and my PhD are all from there, but in fact these were actually accidental. But the point is, in the end the diploma had the Corvinus letterhead on it, yes.
And then in 2006 came the opportunity for me to go to America again.
Herczeg Zoltán2006?
Karafiáth BalázsYes, 2006. And my own personal development happened in such a way that I arrived there at age 33, in 2005, feeling that I didn't want to live. That life had no meaning. So this whole thing of being very successful, having everything, and it had no point, I didn't feel good.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, what you said, I was smiling a bit when you said you were this strange, unapproachable, maybe mostly arrogant person...
Karafiáth BalázsBecause really, it wasn't because I thought I was special, but because I thought I wasn't special, and that I wasn't worthy of connection, love, or attention.
Herczeg ZoltánDo you know this now?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, back then I knew this very much, I just didn't understand it.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd did you know it consciously?
Karafiáth BalázsNo. Back then I thought that's just how the world is. You know? And that's how I arrived in 2005, feeling that there was no point to it.
Herczeg ZoltánCan we call this burnout, this kind of exhaustion?
Karafiáth BalázsNo, this was much deeper than that. This was a real, a genuine, I mean I was doing really badly.
Herczeg ZoltánCan we call it depression?
Karafiáth BalázsDoesn't matter, you can call it anything, because everything was present, I'm telling you, at one point I couldn't even leave the apartment.
Herczeg ZoltánOkay, so if I understand correctly, the economics university was a success story, Sziget was a success story, even if not... Cannes was also a success, and the biggest success story, after that came the scholarship, MBA, PhD.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, and I felt terrible.
Herczeg ZoltánSo you reached the top relatively quickly, financially, intellectually, existentially, you were at the peak, and the problem was: where to go from here?
Karafiáth BalázsWhere to go from here, yes, and truly, terribly, yes, absolutely. So I arrived at the point that I think a huge number of people arrive at, then, since, and in the future too, that what we live in doesn't actually give answers to human questions.
Herczeg ZoltánWe're talking about modern consumer society now, right?
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right, so this late capitalist consumer society, it's an anti-human thing.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, brother, let me tell you, I think it was roughly this state of yours that led to us starting to get along well. I'm sure of it, because what you're talking about now, the depression and the very, very deep spiritual state, having nowhere to go, and preferring death to life because we can't find answers to our questions, in fact soon we don't even have questions anymore. This is familiar territory to me, I've slid into it a good few times myself. But from here, how do we go forward? How do we get out?
Karafiáth BalázsAnd I also wanted to say, sorry, because I forgot in the meantime, that this happens too, that in this state I also started dealing with it a lot. For you it was already Fermár, for me later it was a Fermász, a wonderful professional called Tibor Nagy, called Doki, who is also my friend, who helped me. I had this crisis in America, and after America I needed gigantic help.
And Doki said, and I didn't understand it, and I didn't believe it, and I didn't want to, that you're lovable, my son, precisely when you're in depression, when you're deeply down, and I didn't understand. How could I possibly be lovable? I'm stupid, untalented, incapable, useless, unlovable, a piece of shit. How could anyone love that?
Herczeg ZoltánWell, exactly because of that. That's exactly why you can be loved. You're human.
Karafiáth BalázsBecause you're human. Because it's not the ego, not the loudness, not the me, just me, just me, just me. Look at me. I'm the colorful guy, I'm the smart guy, I'm the guy with the degree, I'm the fashion-industry guy, I'm the... Who cares?
Once you're no longer this loud, stupid parrot-child, then you can be loved. And maybe that's when our relationship started, or that's where we found each other, because I no longer saw that arrogant guy, I saw a human being. And that's probably where the close friendship dates from.
Herczeg ZoltánSo how do you get out of that? Out of that pit?
Karafiáth BalázsAndrás Ferdmár. Well, it happened on top of everything that I met our pediatrician's daughter. That is, the lady whose father was my pediatrician from when I was zero to five, or six years old.
Herczeg ZoltánSo he knew you?
Karafiáth BalázsYes, so in a way he knew me.
Herczeg ZoltánFrom birth to age five, essentially, his father followed all the defining experiences of your life.
Karafiáth BalázsYes. So for some reason the name still sounded familiar. And I told her, we started talking about something, that I'm searching for my place in the world, and the world within myself, and that I'd just seen a film called Is There Life Before Death, it's up on YouTube, I highly recommend it to everyone, and there I saw a person, at the Tabán cinema, I remember, I sat down in the Tabán cinema, and there through the film I got to know a therapist named András Ferdmár, and I thought, maybe this Ferdmár could help me.
And I was thinking, okay, but how do I get from here to this film person, or the one I saw on the screen?
Herczeg ZoltánWas Ferdmár in Canada at the time? Was he already doing the same thing then?
Karafiáth BalázsAround that time he had recently started doing the same thing he does now, working out there, and then coming here to work a bit as well.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd out of a Hungarian spirit... out of a thirst for adventure.
Karafiáth BalázsOut of a thirst for adventure, he still helped people here in Budapest a bit, but there was no Ferdmár Institute or anything like that yet. And the current head of the Ferdmár Institute, Dorka Büki, told me, András, well I'm going to the airport for him now. You see? I meet Dorka Büki, and it turns out she's the daughter of Doki Büki, the one I was thinking of. And she brings you God, so to speak. And she says, I'm heading to the airport now. If he's not too tired, we'll come to your birthday party.
This was specifically the 33rd birthday party, which I think you were also at.
Herczeg ZoltánWhere was that?
Karafiáth BalázsIt was on a rooftop terrace, I'm pretty sure you were there.
Herczeg ZoltánBut rock and roll isn't a dance, and it's not about memory, that's the genre.
Karafiáth BalázsNo, but... But I was there, brother, so thank you very much for the invitation.
Herczeg ZoltánRight, there are recordings from a later birthday where you were present, so I guess it's likely...
Karafiáth BalázsI could have been there later then. Yes, I was there in 2005 too.
Herczeg ZoltánSo then the meeting with Ferdmár happened.
Karafiáth BalázsIt happened. It happened, and we agreed that I'd go out to him in Vancouver in January.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, from that then... sorry, tell me, in what capacity did you get into Nexus? As a patient to be treated?
Karafiáth BalázsYes.
Herczeg ZoltánAh, so you sought him out as a patient.
Karafiáth BalázsWell, I told you, I was in a terrible state. I was looking for who would help me... and he said yes, come. And I was so scared that I even cancelled. So for months I dreaded that January, then I told him that...
Herczeg ZoltánThen you must have really been in bad shape if you couldn't even accept the help.
Karafiáth BalázsWell, that was actually a good instinct, because I didn't like the January weather in Vancouver. It's awful. So we moved it to June. So funnily enough, this was a good decision that came out of fear, and in the end, in June 2006...
Herczeg ZoltánBut even then you only listened to your intuition, and it didn't deceive you.
Karafiáth BalázsYes. And in June 2006 I finally went out to András for the first time, and many times since then.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, that's a therapy, at least the way it went with me, and I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of, because Hungary is significantly behind in this respect, but I think using a professional's help to nurture our soul, to build our soul, is just as necessary as using teachers, universities, schools, high schools, vocational schools, whatever, to develop our brain. So there's nothing embarrassing about it, I owe him a tremendous amount, but therapy, in my reading, is intensive, regular, continuous, long work, week after week, Tuesday after Tuesday, from six o'clock to six o'clock.
Well, traveling from Budapest to Vancouver every Tuesday at six o'clock seems a bit complicated. How did you manage this soul-saving with Ferdmár?
Karafiáth BalázsThat's an interesting story. Yes, it went a bit differently, and it's probably worth saying this much about it now. We chose a different route for this, a more intensive approach to this soul work, but the fact is the relationship continued for a good eight to ten years afterward, so I was out there very often, we did sessions via Skype, when he was here we also worked together, so the relationship itself, the therapist relationship, remained for many years, and it helped.
Herczeg ZoltánWell of course, I wouldn't be here without him.
So let's look at how this relationship with András Ferdmár pushed your life forward after 2006, and let's get to roughly where, I think, something significant happened in between. Then came Yale.
Well, a depressed person doesn't go to Yale, doesn't go anywhere, so you must have started feeling better if you took on such a big task.
Karafiáth BalázsYou know, I was functional the whole time. What was interesting for me was that even when I was in terrible shape, I still somehow pulled myself together in the morning.
Herczeg ZoltánSomehow, yes.
Karafiáth BalázsSo it wasn't like I couldn't get out of bed for weeks. It was more like I couldn't get up for a day or two, but I timed it so that it would preferably be on a weekend. You know? So I always had this sense that I had to take care of myself, my duties, help my family, be with my friends, so I always had something inside that carried me forward.
Herczeg ZoltánRight, I understand the duties, because when I was also very, very deep down, and András Lár came to me, actually my personal relationship with András Lár began exactly in a period when I was very deep down, well actually no, because our very first meeting was a joint interview. I'm mentioning him precisely because he's a person of similar disposition and spiritual outlook, and I like him very much too. We got acquainted through a joint late-night interview, but when András later contacted me to make his stage outfit for his sixtieth birthday, for the big arena show, I was very deep down at that point. But no matter how deep down I was, I couldn't just refuse... partly because it was András Lár who reached out, which is the biggest deal in the world, and partly because I needed the money. But I didn't take on any extra challenge for him the way you did with Yale, I just obviously had to accept what was obligatory.
Anyway, let's jump ahead, Yale, what did you learn, life-wise?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, that it's okay that I'm a terrible manager, because I'm a good leader.
Herczeg ZoltánUh-huh.
Karafiáth BalázsSo essentially the idea of leadership, which is actually 'vezérség' in Hungarian, a word with a very bad connotation here in Eastern Europe, I learned that this is an existing concept. That there is such a thing as leadership, and it's not the same as management. Because I realized I wouldn't hire myself as a manager. That's not how I function. There isn't this continuous day-to-day attention that works well for the same thing, but rather it's much more about intuition, energy up, energy down, withdrawal, out, then back again. So there's very much a pulsation to my life and my energy, and I'm not in love with Excel spreadsheets with six-point font. And I used to think this was a problem, and now I know, on one hand it is a problem, but on the other hand it's a strength, because this is exactly what makes me a good leader. I understand much better what motivates people, how to help a community get from point A to point B, and how we move forward.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd you had to go all the way to a university to figure that out. While you were living your life? How did it come out there?
Karafiáth BalázsIt came about because by chance I was accepted into a leadership program.
Herczeg ZoltánBy chance. There are too many coincidences in your life, but they're compelling.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right. Actually a coincidence that isn't really a coincidence, right?
Herczeg ZoltánThis is called Yale World Fellows, and it's a leadership program where every year around twenty people from around the world come together who are super exciting, very interesting, and they learn from each other, teach each other, and are also taught by select professors.
Okay. Was this half a year?
Karafiáth BalázsIt was half a year in the sense that while there, I also applied to be allowed to stay another half year, and I got it, and I was very proud of that. I felt this was the first thing in my life that no one helped me with. So there I am at Yale, I could be anyone, out of those twenty people only three were given the opportunity to stay. I thought everyone would go back, but it turned out twelve or thirteen applied for those three spots, and I was one of those chosen, and this was a very honest, very true feedback that maybe what I say and do isn't complete nonsense after all.
Herczeg ZoltánBy the way, during this half a year, did you also recover from that deep pit?
Karafiáth BalázsI did recover, well, every week therapy, and there it was also that András was much closer even geographically, so that helped too.
Herczeg ZoltánThe internet is faster there too, right, if you're closer, you don't have to go around the whole Earth.
Karafiáth BalázsThere the time difference between us was only three hours, not nine. So for me there...
Herczeg ZoltánThat makes a huge difference.
Karafiáth BalázsThat makes a huge difference, and from then on, so during Yale I was in continuous therapy, every week, Skype every week there.
Herczeg ZoltánOkay. Yale, leadership, and then we arrive at the present.
Karafiáth BalázsYes.
Herczeg ZoltánLet's not leave that interview alone, it's quite good for something that's too long.
Karafiáth BalázsOur life was too long, Zoli my friend, that's what it means. That's what it means, and we still haven't arrived in America, in Los Angeles, where I showed up on the Harley, because my friend Zoli...
Herczeg ZoltánAnd then comes Ray.
Karafiáth BalázsThen we met Ray.
Herczeg ZoltánThen let's get there, brother.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right. So essentially this became... after Yale there was also the fact that I took time off. I retired myself for two years, so when I came back, it turned out the company was running well, under Branzoli's leadership, Darwin's was doing very well. Essentially, since they didn't need me for a year, and afterward didn't necessarily need me in the shop either, I said, now then, I'll recover.
Herczeg ZoltánDid you have a passive income from that company, by the way? Because to be able to fly around to Australia... that requires a financial base, and this provided it for you.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd then that's essentially when I withdrew to the estate in the Balaton Uplands. Szentantalfa, two years.
Herczeg ZoltánSzentantalfa, two years.
Karafiáth BalázsSzentantalfa. Complete slowdown.
So basically doing nothing, I watched a linden tree for a long time, as I put it.
Herczeg ZoltánYes, I remember that. That was 2007-2008.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd then there was... 2007-2008. Yes. And then I figured I should do something, and that's how it turned into: for two years, just gape amazed at the apple tree.
Herczeg ZoltánPretty much, yes, so I didn't do a lot of things. Was it useful?
Karafiáth BalázsVery much so. This slowing down is what everyone needs, because you don't realize the pace, for me it was two years, maybe for more skilled people it's two months, or two weeks, or two days.
We can compare this period to my favorite story, when five thousand years ago in China the greatest minds, artists, philosophers, poets, writers competed over who could do nothing at the highest level. How they'd watch the apple blossom every day, seeing how much bigger it was than yesterday, and what a wonderful thing that is, and wondering how big it will be tomorrow.
And these great kings in China five thousand years ago established that this is actually the meaning of our lives. And my own document also says: to contemplate.
Herczeg ZoltánThat was real contemplation, absolutely. So we establish that this would be humanity's true task, but then why do we have to rot away in work day after day?
Karafiáth BalázsThat's an illusion. Well, it starts from the fact that we tie wages to work, so that's the first lie that needs to be separated.
Herczeg ZoltánWe tie the wage to the work.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right. So livelihood tied to work. This will also change. So when we talk about universal income, basic income, that's the separation that needs to happen, so everyone can live for their creativity.
Herczeg ZoltánWe've rowed into difficult waters. Let's talk about this, because maybe now we can arrive at the present, right?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, in the meantime there were another five years in America, which was great, I met you out there, and it was there that I realized I was going to stop working for the Matrix. So what's important is that in 2013-14 I decided there that I didn't want to help sell any more cola.
I had a very bad experience with Coca-Cola, it turned out they really don't care that they're making people sick, people who don't drink cola from a small bottle like a coffee but drink two liters, and for eight years...
Herczeg ZoltánAnd they're the majority, for the most part.
Karafiáth BalázsAnd when we had research about this, we showed it to the cola company, we wrote in that research that the memes say a brand danger is coming, that what we learned from the internet about them was that it was starting to reach their consumers that what they're putting into their bodies is bad for them. And to this they said: help us silence these voices. And we said we're not in that business, but we can help you change in that direction.
And that's how I realized, it was funny, because I had this little Hungarian illusion that okay, the American multinational doesn't care about Hungarian consumers, but maybe it cares about the Americans. And it really landed on me that no. Really, no. It really only cares about the dollars. And this applies to all the other big multinationals around the world too.
And that's when I checked out of the Matrix. I said as long as I'm in communications, the communication budgets are at these companies, and I can't choose who I work for and what I help with.
And that was quite a lot for my co-owners in the company, because I said I wasn't going to build the company in Silicon Valley, we wouldn't become dollar millionaires by taking the technology out of the Budapest workshop and making a software company out there.
Herczeg ZoltánYou could already be a billionaire from that.
Karafiáth BalázsAbsolutely. Yes, but the thing is you can't control the intent that gets loaded onto that incredible knowledge.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's right. What they do with it?
Karafiáth BalázsYes, so our clients would have been Bayer, Coca-Cola, and other big companies, American defense...
Herczeg ZoltánAnd each of them would have used your knowledge for profit.
Karafiáth BalázsTo mislead people into doing what the companies wanted. Because the persuasion industry is about this: buy what I'm selling, and there would be nothing wrong with that if I also cared about who you are and what's good for you, you know?
What we see, let's say the other side of this, the whole organic revolution, is exactly about wanting to make something with my own hands, that I grew myself, that I didn't put chemicals into, the sun shone on it, that's how this tomato grew, and now it becomes your bruschetta, with the local cow's cheese.
This is, I think, a huge and very important, one of the most important cultural changes.
Herczeg ZoltánDefinitely in your life, because the evolution of the last twenty-thirty years we've been talking about led up to this point, where from a very successful businessman, from the bottom of an incredibly deep pit, you returned as an enlightened, clearer, more human-centered humanist...
Karafiáth BalázsSo I don't call this enlightenment, because that...
Herczeg ZoltánOkay, that's strong. We know that word is strong.
Karafiáth BalázsIt's different, because that's about someone connecting in, or rather fully disconnecting from the ego...
Herczeg ZoltánFrom the material world.
Karafiáth BalázsNot even that, more like ego-based mind approaches. I obviously strive to get out of my ego as much as possible. I'd rather call this a kind of business enlightenment. So I realized that I definitely don't want to participate in this whole capitalist system in this way.
Herczeg ZoltánOkay, so there's a possibility, according to this, your life exemplifies that we can step out of this matrix, as you put it. But does everyone have that opportunity? Obviously someone who has one or two well-functioning companies providing secure passive income, or maybe has savings set aside, has that opportunity, but how could an ordinary worker in Hungary pull this off, do you think?
Is there a way, with this philosophy you profess, and I think exactly the same and live the same way, I was never a member of the matrix, this matrix is crap and it wears on me day by day, and I'd like to distance myself from it even more, does today's average Hungarian citizen have a chance to reach this spiritual level, and what would be the way to do it? And how do you take part in this?
Karafiáth BalázsWell, it's the reverse. It's like this: we participate together, as humans, in a shared spiritual path of development, not as individuals, not as societies, but as humanity globally, which has been going on, from certain perspectives, for a hundred thousand or even a million years.
And actually what we're talking about is the vanguard of this eight-nine billion strong team. So we're part of those tens of millions, maybe a few hundred million people, you and me and Ray, and a few tens or hundreds of millions of others, who, if you imagine this as a path of development, some are further ahead in it, and some are further behind.
Herczeg ZoltánCan we name this somehow? Very vividly and briefly, this path? What do we call this?
Karafiáth BalázsBecoming conscious.
Herczeg ZoltánBecoming conscious. Let's say.
Karafiáth BalázsSo the development of consciousness. And every single person is part of this from age zero, and every single community is part of it from its founding, and every country and people is part of it from the beginning, and all of humanity is on this path too.
For anyone interested, a man named Ken Wilber wrote about this beautifully, this became what's called integral theory, and integral theory speaks very deeply about this, if someone wants to go into its levels, there are beautiful parallels that align individual development, community development, the development of peoples, and the development of humanity.
And it's beautiful to see that whoever reaches, in some way, a point that we've also talked about in both our lives, for them, as I see the world differently because of it, these possibilities open up that you and I are talking about, you know?
So the question isn't whether an average person can do it, but rather, it's very simple actually, whether it's satori or kensho, so becoming enlightened, or reaching enlightenment through some kind of pain, these are the two possibilities we have.
If someone goes through any of these, and this can be a near-death experience, a serious illness, among our relatives, our friends, or something we develop in our own body, or we simply sit under a tree and something happens, at the moment we start seeing the world differently and stop feeling like a victim of this system, stop feeling that there's nothing we can do, or we have no options, or oh, there's nothing I can do, I'm just this way, I'm just someone, I'm like this, sorry, I can't do anything else.
When we step over into responsibility, and this is where it gets messy, because the word responsibility is right there, and in many cases it leads to a whole lot of other things we don't like, work, honest conversations, owning up to ourselves and things like that. In that situation a completely different perspective opens up, and a different world.
So we usually say the best method for changing the world is if you look at it differently, and then you'll see a different world. And actually this is the process we're talking about, that since then I've dedicated my life to helping people look at their lives differently, look at their world differently, and notice that because of this, depending on the perspective, their life, their world, their family, their relationships completely change.
And the most beautiful part of the story is that quantum physics says this, and the Vedas said this, you know, five thousand years ago. So essentially we arrive at the end of a journey where some ancient, forgotten knowledge can now be brought in through quantum physics, which says that the act of observation determines what we see, what it's like, what it does, and where it goes. Terribly exciting. Terribly exciting.
Herczeg ZoltánRight, that would have been my next question, because you partly answered it already, it just won't leave me alone, even though I got a partial answer, the question that if I, or we, or you have such a gift, such a well-functioning perspective on this situation, then do we have the opportunity, or even the obligation, to share this knowledge so that the world around us becomes better.
So my constant dilemma is that I too feel I know something that many people don't know, and which of course I also practice while I live it, so I don't know either, I can't call it enlightenment either, that's a very, very strong word, it's not even needed, but that maybe I know something, not rushing, and that I have no task, really I have no task, that my task is to be well.
This seems like a relatively simple philosophy and lifestyle, but still. Still, on one hand I practice it, on the other hand I want to pass it on. Pass it on, because I see that the world around me is rushing and sweeping me away. No matter how much I try to stop and observe quietly, the world sweeps, sweeps along. And it would be better if the whole thing were more of a keep calm situation.
That we have the opportunity, but whether it's our duty to do this, to fulfill it. Because you're doing it, doing it your own way, and I'm doing it too.
Karafiáth BalázsThis became the meaning of my life. So essentially I found the meaning of my life in helping others find the meaning of their lives. Let these be... This certain purpose.
Herczeg ZoltánThe purpose.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, the purpose, which is not a doing but a being. And this is very important. Because the why is not a what. Many people, when they turn to me too, are stuck on what's next, what they'll do next year. It's not about what they'll do next year or tomorrow, but why. So this is a being, not a doing.
So I usually say being is the new doing. Well, this is basically about the fact that we've had enough of the human, now let the emphasis be on the being, of human being, you understand? So what you're saying is that this is a state of existence, this is a being, a becoming. And here we're talking about becoming, about changing the way of becoming, about new ways of becoming.
And this gives me so much, that in this I can help people...
Herczeg ZoltánDo you think eight billion people on Earth can all be in a state of becoming at the same time? Would the economy work, would our life work, would the physical...
Karafiáth BalázsIt's much more a question of when. That's why I say this is a development, you understand, and it's not for nothing a process. You understand? So in my eyes, the actual question is whether we'll avoid a third world war. Whether it's possible for this human development to proceed in evolution and not revolution?
So whether we can move forward without stepping back. Funnily enough, revolution is like rewinding, right? And evolution is fast-forwarding. And I don't think this has been decided at all yet.
For example, I'm a big fan of Star Trek, and of the human coexistence presented there across several series, which is, for instance, a human coexistence beyond the material world, since the replicators create everything. So it's not worth fighting for material goods. I go into the computer and type Swiss watch, two, and it immediately gives me beautiful Swiss watches, or I type Adidas shoes, black, and it gives them to me. So from that point on, who has what just comes down to who's pressing buttons on their computer, so it's no longer...
Herczeg ZoltánIt loses its significance.
Karafiáth BalázsYes. But for example the Star Trek universe exists after a third world war. So when they came up with this in the fifties, quite serious episodes had happened by then, and they believed we wouldn't avoid another one, so they set the whole universe after a third world war.
So the question is whether we'll avoid a few billion people perishing just so human consciousness realizes how far we've drifted from love, to circle back to the very first...
Herczeg ZoltánI actually think, and maybe I'll end up answering my own question, that if for an individual, for one person, a huge cataclysm is necessary, hard to avoid, a divorce, a depression, a work failure, a huge break in life in order to step up a level, and I believe it's actually necessary for it. Or as you said, there are two paths: satori and kensho.
Karafiáth BalázsYes, yes, that's the kensho you mentioned. That's when we run headfirst, so we go head-first into the wall.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd I find it hard to imagine, actually there are more of them, this group is perhaps larger, I don't know if it can be quantified, but isn't it possible that if an individual needs, I needed, in order to think with a sound mind, or rather to think with a pure heart, this required a terrible number of breaks in my life, well not a terrible number, but there were a few breaks, deep, very deep breaks in my life.
Is it conceivable that all of society, the entire population of Earth, also needs a huge cataclysm in order to move forward? That, isn't it possible that a Mad Max world has to come, in the life of society, looking at the whole globe, a Mad Max world is needed for us to grow up, for our heads to catch up? Maybe this is unavoidable?
Karafiáth BalázsIt's possible.
Herczeg ZoltánYes, that's why I say it. Maybe this is exactly what we're in the middle of right now?
Karafiáth BalázsMaybe this, so I arrived at exactly the same conclusion in my own thinking, that it's not certain we can avoid this, so it's possible that this is a necessary evil for us to find our way back to our hearts.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, look, because I look out the window and I see people with covered faces all over the world. That doesn't exactly suggest that we're opening up here, and...
Karafiáth BalázsWell yes, and isn't it possible that this is already the cataclysm we're living through right now? That's a feedback signal. The pollution of the oceans, the destruction of the rainforests, the depressed people, the creaking of consumer society, the actions of Coca-Cola, all of this is a failure, all of this is a terrible crisis.
Herczeg ZoltánWithout its medicine. Can you imagine that?
Karafiáth BalázsNo.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's a business.
Karafiáth BalázsThis is a society living on tranquilizers and stimulants. So that it can keep producing money, keep consuming.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's very harsh. This is very harsh.
Karafiáth BalázsSo people will look back on this era two or three hundred years from now, and they'll see it as a barbaric period, where we don't care about mothers, we don't care about children, we only care about money, we don't care about ourselves, we don't care about each other. So in hindsight, I think this will look like a truly barbaric period.
Herczeg ZoltánI think so too.
We have a civic political team called Let's Finally Change Something. It started as a working title, then it just stuck. With this team we want the opposite of the Hungarian political setup, the institutionalized structure of the Hungarian state, we want a better society, a more livable society, exactly what you were talking about, without medications, happily, in peace, without the chasing after profit, calmly contemplating according to the 5000 year old Chinese culture, and to live in love, and we want to make this happen with this brigade. There are few of us, but people are joining, and the community is growing, and we're working on this. What do you think we should finally change something about in order to reach this idyllic world, and maybe this will be my last question. Let's finally change something. Should we all change?
Karafiáth BalázsYourselves. Only yourselves. This doesn't work any other way than working on ourselves, and us showing the example that others will follow. There's nothing better than that. And thank God this thing, through these tools we're talking on right now, has never before been able to reach this many people. Honest words, real experiences, talking about our difficult periods, telling through all this that it can be done this way, if one person watches this show and thinks they want to start something in their own life because of it, then we didn't sit here in vain, and I say this very sincerely. So this can work this way, this kind of process happening one person at a time.
Herczeg ZoltánOne person at a time, and from many small ones, many small individuals, comes one big society of ours.
Karafiáth BalázsMany small healthy cells make up a healthy society. I can't heal ten million people, ten million cells, but I can heal my own, and that's exactly one more healthy cell than if it weren't there.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's right, and science adds the knowledge that if about 17% of society pulls in one direction, that can already be enough for the whole society to change.
Karafiáth BalázsWe know this from network theory. So we're not talking about how 50% or 80% or 100% will become different, but if there's a very stable 15 to 20 percent core that very clearly sees which way is forward. This has a dark side too, of course: if that 15 to 20 percent wants to go in a very bad direction, if it serves darkness, if it's misled somewhere, it's the same, the math doesn't distinguish between those cases.
Herczeg ZoltánSo it carries the rest along with it?
Karafiáth BalázsAbsolutely.
Herczeg Zoltán15 to 20 percent?
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right.
Herczeg ZoltánSo what happens if there's 15% white, meaning a mass of pure intent, which I really hope we can count ourselves among, and there's 15% dark, who are about money and the hustle and modern consumerist dumbing down, capitalism, then how can these power dynamics play out if both exist?
Karafiáth BalázsThis is what's happening now. So the fact that we do our thing, that we're part of this process, is important because we might be the guarantee that things aren't much worse. You understand?
Herczeg ZoltánI understand, I understand. Réi says we should look at the comments. And I wanted to close the conversation. I'll say, what has our conversation been, right? We've been talking for an hour and twenty minutes.
Karafiáth BalázsUh-huh, very good.
Herczeg ZoltánWe've been talking for an hour and twenty minutes. But good, the shirt, yes, this is Herczeg.
Instinctive responses are also needed, says Csilla Behin.
Karafiáth BalázsBut I'm saying it now.
Herczeg ZoltánThat's right. Obviously faster and faster, but...
Karafiáth BalázsWell yes, many individuals make up the social, that's what we're saying, and it's our sacred duty, our sacred duty.
Herczeg ZoltánAnd according to Gábor Tóth the tone of voice is mystical, well the therapy was mystical too.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right.
Herczeg ZoltánI'm going to read all the comments, and it's possible I'll even respond to them one by one, by hand too, and it's possible our brother Balázs will do this too. I think right now, after the show, a bit of comment...
Karafiáth BalázsWe'll discuss it a bit.
Herczeg ZoltánBut I'm going to close the conversation, because an hour and twenty minutes is a lot for people today, if only...
Karafiáth BalázsI actually really loved these three to four hour podcasts. So I don't have a problem with that...
Herczeg ZoltánWell, if the interview subject is such that I can't stop, then three hours feels like three minutes. But if the interview subject is such that even one minute is too much, there was one like that recently on Partizán, I couldn't watch it all the way through, my brother, I'll say it honestly.
Karafiáth BalázsBut it's good that you make your decisions, you make responsible decisions.
Herczeg ZoltánThe responsible decision... And I'll mean this as a closing remark, the responsible decision was when I came to Réi a week ago, whom I met in the United States, and maybe we'll tell a bit more of the story. In 2014, when I went out to America to save the world, then I only saved myself, but that turned out to be the whole world.
Karafiáth BalázsAs it turned out. Mostly because of you all.
Herczeg ZoltánAs how we met Réi, and when Réi invited us, I don't see what Réi is gesturing, but when he invited us...
Karafiáth BalázsBrother. Don't.
Herczeg ZoltánWhen he invited me here, many years passed before we talked in this studio, then I came, I said yes, that I'll come, brother, because I'm curious what's going on with you. Then when he asked what's up with Balázs, I told him, then I called Balázs so you two could talk, to see what's up with Balázs. And when he asked if we felt like talking in the studio, I again said yes, so I say yes instead of no. This is perhaps the change, perhaps the activity that lets you call eighty percent of a person's existence a life, a human life: the yeses. The good noes and the good yeses.
Karafiáth BalázsAbsolutely, absolutely. So it's not that hard, but yet it's the hardest thing in the world.
Herczeg ZoltánYes, but at the same time it's also the greatest fun, so mostly...
Karafiáth BalázsThat's true. Interesting, and exciting.
Herczeg ZoltánInterestingly exciting.
Karafiáth BalázsThat's right.
Herczeg ZoltánWell, I'm very glad you came, my brother, I'm very glad our old brother invited us, I'm very glad everyone said yes to everything, because now we were able to have a very entertaining and substantial conversation. And I debuted as a reporter, well the dear audience will decide how I did, it's not my place to judge myself, I practiced that for a long time, but that's up to them, it's not my business, I just have to be, just have to act and say yes to the right questions. Thank you very much for being here, thank you very much for the invitation.
Karafiáth BalázsWell, I wish you all the best too. Goodbye.
